StuartDB wrote:Jesus Christ - you can take the Mussolini out of Italy... but he's certainly got his following...
People will have their Pay Stopped if they do not have a vaccine.. utter lunacy

Vaccine requirements are nothing new in certain professions. The only difference between then & now is the politicization of Covid-19.

In both California & Washington, an annual flu shot is the price of admission if you want to work in hospitals.

I am allowed to decline the hepatitis vaccine series (I didn't) but would be required to view an annual refresher course on infectious diseases and sign a waver if I declined.

Both my wife (who is a High School teacher) and I are required to have a TB (tuberculosis) test performed every couple of years in order to continue to work in our respective fields.

No one is forced to comply, but choosing not to get vaccinated means you'd need to find a different line of employment...


Personally, I view vaccines as 'armor'. If they make a shot for it, I want it.
Even better if its a requirement for employment as your employer is then required to pay for them.
The way I see it, the more protection I have the more places I can go & the more things I can do safely.

So if a government will enforce a mandatory vaccine. (There's no way an MP should be allowed in London)

They need to all do this first.. followed by every GP, Surgeon, registrar, nurse, toilet cleaner.
And it must be the cheapo one so our AZ Jab @ £3 not the Pfizer @15 or Merderna @20 or JJ @??

This is absolute lunacy.. it is simply documenting every person and their medical history..
I have taken. Anti epilepsy medication for 11 years and never have had an epileptic fit. It needs to be collected along with a dna sample.

The AZ vaccine is interesting 7 people from 30 have died from an interesting blood clot... its very rare.. but only 30 people got one from 18,000,000 .. but they would not have had one without the vaccine. So is that £120,000 x 30 compensation for knowingly risking a vaccine induced blood clot or 7 ? A sinus blood clot, doesn't feel co-incidental ? It's like saying we'll teach everyone to cross a motorway and saying only 1 in every 10,000 people got run over... so that's good.... but none of those 10,000 were going to try and cross the motorway were they?

I don't like the idea of it... if they really want rid of more people they need to hang them, like in 'A Handmaid Tale'


I want to see some evidence of the 100% efficacy from the Pfizer Vaccine for 12-16 year olds the Trial was 2000 so 1000 vaccinated and 1000 not vaccinated and none of them got ill... or did 1000 unvaccinated kids get ill?


They already stated 1 in a million get ill, so the trial needs to be 200,000,000 doesn't it?

Careful Stuart, all your thoughts are coming out loud again.

The blood clot thing is interesting. I've seen normal population prevalence figures for cerebral venous thrombosis (CVT) clotting quoted from five per million to 1.6 per 100,000 (BMJ) per year so for a 18,000,000 sample you'd expect 90 to 288 cases in a year normally. So are the 30 cases over the period the vaccine was given a coincidence? Apparently the chances of getting thromboembalism from COVID-19 are about 1 in 6 and the C-19 infection mortality rate is about 1,000 per million infected.

There's an analysis in the Lancet based on Danish data here:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00762-5/fulltext

Yeah, there's less in the UK compared to the continent ... I didn't realise it was a clot in the brain. They discussed on the news, whether these people might have covid at the same time as being given the vaccine. I always thought a clot in the brain was deemed a stroke. Weird that it's mainly women under 60 effected.

It still doesn't mean that everyone is forced to have a vaccine. If you take the choice away, it creates resentment - the current community encouragement, has been effective so far. Everyone I know who are entitled have had it, and half said they wouldn't as don't want to be guinea-pigs.

Covid 'super strain may cause devastating outbreak' if lockdown eased too soon

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/c ... g-23844197

I would like to say what doesn't kill us makes us stronger - but that really isn't the case with cov-id

I think the expert virologists were a bit premature with their "when it mutates it becomes less deadly as exchanges that to be more transmissible" and now they are all tell us public to not keep saying (what we were told by the and their peers) as it isn't true.

maybe we just need to suck it up and accept there's too many people in the world, and this will sort out lots of problems, we can slow it down, but cannot stop the inevitable.

Another massive fail for EU and sad missed opportunity for AZ (who spend £3 making a dose of covid vaccine and EU negotiated £2.50 somehow) ?

Hungary have 'approved' Sputnik at €16 a dose and €30 a dose for Chinese covid vaccine. That's €60 euro per person from the Chinese government, for their vaccine.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/12/mat ... y-tells-eu

They have published the entire contracts, and are tired of the EU Commission lack luster approach to their citizens. I think they spent a couple of weeks agreeing payment and transfer, so they can vaccinate their people. Hopefully AZ will start charging proper money too soon..

Right at the beginning of the delivery of AZ vaccines, the EU accused AZ of not delivering to them because other people paid more... if it transpires the EU Commission decided each EU citizens' life (not 'lives' surely as we are not cats) is worth less than the cost of production of a "not for profit" vaccine, they will be destroyed (like in "The Hand Maiden's Tale", when someone attacked one of them) shame on the EU for gambling with 400,000,000 people's welfare and future.

So as you suggested John, other countries can approve and separately purchase their own, but what damage will this cause? (EU wise...? Will they allow this anarchy? A bit like a house survey, you only need one.. so all the other countries can see 4 weeks after the Hungary jabs that everyone's okay, they can get their own.. and will Hungary get a referrers fee?)

Have Hungary really tested and approved these vaccines? They only have 9.5 million people? Surely they have just said... yep let's do it..

You can't one minute say the EU is a dictatorship and a bad thing and the next say their lack of dictatorship is causing anarchy and is a bad thing. Both can't be true and the reason is that neither are true.

The EU's vaccine procurement scheme was done for all the right reasons in an effort to avoid vaccine nationalism. The difficulty over the AZ vaccine supply I've already covered - the UK are effectively implementing a vaccine export ban through contact. We're not exported even one vaccine. The EU in contrast have been exporting vaccines worldwide and the biggest customer has been the UK. Which deserves the shame?

.... :
You can't one minute say the EU is a dictatorship and a bad thing and the next say their lack of dictatorship is causing anarchy and is a bad thing....

Of course, I can that's exactly what anarchy is...

Just like I might disagree with the new police law and disagree with the riots about the bill. Or be angry about racism and also angry about the BLM riots. Disagree with abortion, but also state that women are entitled to do whatever they wish. I am not carrying on, I think you understand the point I am making. Regarding the EU they have been exposed for what they are, and the individual member states are now also seeing them for what they are and being forced to 'go it alone" in football, when the team isn't working they replace the management, but when management are self-elected and self-managed the players leave the club instead.

Which Segways back to I think everyone should be vaccinated by I don't think they should be mandatory

Well you seem to be agreeing with my point that neither extreme is true and what is required is more in the middle gained from understanding and compromise.

I wish you would stop saying I agree with you... unless you have a Black TT as they are the fastest colour.

I am more similar to an Amazon Union Busting Robot Ambassadors..

Regarding "vaccine passports" being used to relax social distancing, the calculation on the R rate is quite interesting.

As you can see in this article discussing the transmission blocking effects of vaccines it's a difficult thing to measure and certainly not the same thing as efficacy against preventing severe illness, which is the presumptive mistake our politicians seem to be making.

The Astrazeneca trial taking swab tests every week and comparing vaccinated to placebo groups suggested the vaccine only reduced transmission by a factor of about 0.5 (49.3%).

The natural R0 rate for the dominant Kent variant is 5.2 and we've brought the current measured R rate down to around 0.8 with a combination of social distancing and vaccinations done so far.

So if vaccination halves transmission (reducing R0 from 5.2 to 2.6) social distancing is having a much bigger effect. A factor between 2.6/0.8 = 3.25 for all vaccinated and 5.2/0.8 = 6.5 for only social distancing affecting R.

So, if we use vaccination certificates as a false excuse for removing social distancing precautions we will likely push R back up towards 2.6 and exponential growth which would be very dangerous if done before everyone is vaccinated.

The virus would still be in circulation even then and likely to produce variants.

….The Astrazeneca trial taking swab tests every week and comparing vaccinated to placebo groups suggested the vaccine only reduced transmission by a factor of about 0.5 (49.3%)….

that is actually quite good, there was no expectancy that vaccinated people would stop spreading it, only not get ill from it.

I think the blood clot investigations are not going away, the fact it seems to be affecting relatively young women, must help the investigations. as soon as someone getting vaccinated may have more chance to die from the vaccine than the illness. they'll need to stop... so the fact under 30s are not getting AZ, maybe highlights the line in the sand.

this is a whole feature of Deutschland 86 (I think 86) medication to stop a respiratory disease being tested on East Germans (it was Western medicine) - not sure how true it was.

Edited: hole to whole

It's not good enough. The point I was making was that transmission is only shown to the reduced by half (not the 100% like many are presuming from their comments) and that social distancing has a much bigger effect. So swapping one for the other is going to be a bad idea.

Also, the trial is not such a reliable measure in the circumstances where transmission is reduced by other mitigating factors. Transmission is one of the most difficult things to measure. You really want to be tracing individual infections to be sure - or wait until a whole population is vaccinated to get an averaged picture when social distancing is removed - but then it's too late - or now is too early.

You know the types of dreams where 'you are trying to outrun a tidal wave'..? (We all have them) - Humanity is at the point where running won't help anymore, and instead we need to face the tidal wave and roll with the wash up the shingle into the cave and try and pot-hole our way out to life.

Covid-19 is so last decade