If the top detects a fault, it will prevent the hydraulic motor from running. Odds are you've got a problem with one of the flap servos. When this happens, the car 'thinks' there's as possibility of a collision between the roof and the flap, so it disables the system.

Double check that the valve is open. As long as it is, you should be able to open/close the top manually and latch it shut.

https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1347177

The flap servos are an easy DIY to fix, but will require a VCDS in order to run an Adaptation and to clear the fault codes. If you don't have one, you can check the Stickies section under "VAGCOM/VCDS users" and see if anyone near you can help out. Otherwise, you can either buy a VCDS from Ross-Tech, or pay to have a shop run the Adaptation for you after you've sorted the servo motors.

Here's a link to the Stickies -
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 9&t=240247

Please follow this link for more information on the flap R&R -
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1786641

This link will provide some additional information on the Roadster you may find useful -
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1813258

 

SwissJetPilot - you are my hero!!

That guide is phenomenal and what a great idea to save it as PDF on the iPhone. I did just that and referred to it in the car.

I managed to get the top up. I had been trying it with the key in the ignition and apparently something was locking up. Without the key, and with the bleed screw open, the top went right up.

But...here's where I'm stuck. The previous owner must have had issues and sheared off the screw-end of the crank tool in the spline shaft. Now cannot get the tool to lock onto the spline shaft (see picture) I tried grabbing it with channel lock pliers and pulling downward, but no such luck.

Am I screwed?

 

Just looked at mine wouldn’t go up Make sure the back window is fully down and then try it. Worked for me

 

Yeah, basically once a fault is detected, the switch and automatic operation is disabled. This is pretty common when people make the mistake of opening the top while moving or if they attempt to open the top without the engine running and a low voltage fault occurs. Fortunately, it's often a simple fix by opening and closing the top manually with the ignition turned to the first position.

Having said that, if there's a problem with the roof flap servo motor, the top is definitely out of service and will have to be corrected by a shop. But you can try the ignition turned to first position (accessory) and see if opening/closing the top solves the problem.

So the top is closed, but the spline shaft won't come out? Ah, the joys of Roadster tops!! :lol:

First, I'll be honest, I'm not sure what that bracket is for. Would it be possible to get a few more pictures, maybe a bit farther away from the motor and a couple of different side shots would be helpful. As you can see in my photos, I don't have that feature in mine so I don't know if this is something unique your year.

As you correctly noted, the crank arm tool stud is broken off inside the spline shaft. You can see the little silver piece of it where indicated inside the spline shaft. You don't have to replace the spline shaft or the crank arm as long as you can pull the spline out. But if you do, be sure to get a new crank arm. Or, leave the spline shaft as is and toss a pair of Vise Grip pliers in the trunk. They'll come in handy in an emergency if the window regulator craps out.

Unfortunately this is a very common problem no thanks to Audi's less than intuitive design, poor instructions in the owners manual and a lack of understanding by owners as to what's involved.

But anyway. Back to your situation -

If the channel locks didn't work, try to pull it out using Vise grips. They will provide a better grip than channel locks. That end of the spline shaft doesn't matter so if you bung it up a bit in the attempt, it's not an issue.

If that fails to do the trick, what can happen is there's pressure on the spline shaft from the motor spline and upper latch spline as the way the motors is mounted. Basically the top and bottom of the spline shaft are being pushed in opposite directions making removal a challenge.

But give it your best attempt with the Vise grips first. don't worry about clamping down too hard on the spline shaft, it's hardened steel.

If you still can't get it out with Vise Grips, what may help is to unscrew the Torx motor mount screw to loosen the motor. You don't need to unscrew it completely, just a couple of turns so it's loose. If the spline shaft still refuses to come out, then go ahead and remove the screw as removing the entire motor is the next step. There's a long double-ended torx in the tool kit which will fit into the screwdriver handle. Here's a couple more posts on the issue -

https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 2&start=75 (Page 6)

https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1827978

Whatever you do, don't attempt to turn the spline shaft while it's inside the motor or you will severely damage the motor. The point of removing the spline shaft is so you can get the spline end of the crank arm tool through and past the motor spline, so you can engage the latch spline. So when you get a good grip on it with the Vise Grips, just pull straight out. Don't attempt to turn or rotate it. I've included this illustration to show how, once the spline shaft is removed, the crank arm tool engages with the latch spline.

I'll keep an eye on this post today, so let me know how this works out. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

 

Thank you so much once again! I will get on it tomorrow once I can buy some vise-grip pliers. I'll take some pictures of the bracket as well for you. Hopefully, once I get through with the manual process, the magic will happen and the automatic top will resume normal operations.

 

One thing to try before you pull the spline shaft...

Open the hydraulic valve, turn the ignition to the first position (don't start the engine) and manually open and close the top. Sometimes this will 'trick' the computer and reset everything. Once you have opened and closed the top, close the valve, then start the car and see if the top will cycle normally in automatic mode. If not, then pull the spline shaft, repeat the manual open/close process with the ignition in first position, but this time latch the top. Once latched, close the valve, start the car and try cycle the top normally in automatic mode.

It's important that when you try to cycle the top normally, the engine should be running to ensure the system has enough voltage. A low battery can also cause a fault so don't try to operate it normally unless the engine is running.

If the top still doesn't work, then there's definitely a fault in the system and it will have to be cleared. At which point you can either buy yourself a VCDS and sort the fault yourself, or take it in to an Audi Service or local independent who can clear the faults and sort out the cause of the failure.

As I mentioned, it's probably the flap servo motor which is an easy DIY repair and will save you the cost of replacing the servo motor which is the standard "repair" offered by service shops. The cost of this service will be about as much as a new VCDS but once you have a VCDS, you can now do your own repairs and scan the vehicle in the future for other problems when they come up.

IHMO a VCDS is a must-have for Roadster owners because faults with the top are inevitable and you can easily clear them yourself rather than paying a service shop to do it.

 

As I mentioned, it's probably the flap servo motor which is an easy DIY repair and will save you the cost of replacing the servo motor which is the standard "repair" offered by service shops. The cost of this service will be about as much as a new VCDS but one you have a VCDS, you can now do your own repairs and scan the vehicle in the future for other problems when they come up.

Believe everything SJP says about this issue and the method to cure the problem. I did mine last night and the guilty grease was there exactly as the PDF shows. Cleaned it all up and now I have a working roof on my Roadster. 8) 8)

TonyZ

 

Hey Pilot!

Apparently the recipe for success to is have (a) someone willing to give excellent directions, and (b) someone else willing to follow them

I did as you said, got the vice grips and pulled out the spline shaft! I did have to loosen the motor mounting screw.

It seems that the bracket is just a secondary method for keeping the motor in place (I took pictures).

Once the shaft was out, I couldn't get the tool in all the way so I removed the motor to see what was the deal. There is a little spring clip in there (to keep the crank tool from falling out and wrecking the center console). I put the tool in and closed the top. YES!!!

Now, when I took off the motor, an interesting washer fell out (it has felt on one side). I'm assuming it goes onto the motor mounting screw, between the motor and the body of the car??? If so, which way does the felt go - motor side or car side?

And what's next? Reassemble and try to operate with the button control?

 

Fantastic! Great pictures, thanks for posting them. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Yep, at this point it's just a matter of putting it all back together. The washer goes in felt-side down (against the motor). That can be a bit fiddly so be patient as you have to align the motor, the spline shaft, slip the washer onto the spline shaft and then try to refit everything. If you get frustrated, go have a tea break and come back to it. Trust me on this!

The clip is actually there to hold the spline shaft in place so it doesn't fall out. You'll notice there's a groove, cut all the way around it. That feature engages with the clip.

But before you do - - Cycle the top (open/close) manually with the ignition in the first position. Fingers crossed. Don't worry about the spline shaft not being installed. It's a dumb motor so nothing can happen other than it will spin attempting to latch/unlatch the top. Hopefully this will clear the faults and operate normally. If not, then put it all back together, latch the top and have a service shop deal with it or buy a VCDS and do it yourself.

If the spline shaft won't fit back in, and gets stuck when you try to get it back into the latch inner spline, there could be a misalignment issue; either sideways (the motor is out of position left-to-right) or in a rotational orientation where the motor and latch inner splines are misaligned as shown in the previous pictures. If this is the case, you'll have to use the crank arm tool to slightly un-latch the top just a tiny, tiny bit to rotate the latch spline so you can get both motor and latch inner splines aligned. You can only rotate the latch spline as the motor spline can not be rotated without breaking it. Again, have a cup of tea handy just in case.

Once you have it all back together, start the car and see if you can operate the top normally. Don't forget to close the hydraulic valve first.

Hummmm...interesting that I don't have the bracket. Now I'm wondering if it's missing!? I'm going to be really pissed off if the Italian Audi dealership I took it to when my top quit working failed to re-install it! :x Ah well, it's worked for 5-years without it.

 

Alrighty. Looks like I'll have to brew some tea and get to it. I'll probably wait for my lady to get home so she can give me a helping hand. I do tend to get frustrated with these kinds of tasks, when things need be held up and aligned 3 different ways [smiley=bomb.gif]

Just to make sure:

----- For the washer, it goes on the spline shaft and not the mounting screw, felt towards the motor

----- Before I secure the motor, I keep the hydraulic screw open and key to first position

----- I lower and then raise the top manually (after manually unlocking the latches, right?)

----- You say: "It's a dumb motor so nothing can happen other than it will spin attempting to latch/unlatch the top"....How will it spin if I'm not pressing the convertible button? Will it just somehow sense when the top is about to latch, as long as the ignition key is in the first position?

Sorry, but need some clarity. Thanks in advance!

 

Sorry, should have clarified. :? The motor in the top is 'dumb' in that there's no direct modulation by the computer. The motor get's power and spins as long as power is applied. There are two contact switches in the outboard latches and when they're engaged, this let the computer know to stop applying power to the motor.

Unlike the roof latch motor, the flap servo motors are modulated in that they are directly linked to a potentiometer (like a dimmer switch) that sends a signal to the computer. As the motor turns, the voltage across the potentiometer changes and when an expected voltage is realized, the computer stops the motor.

Actually you might want to read this as it goes into quite a bit of detail on the step by step operation of the convertible top and how the switches and motors are coordinated -

View attachment SSP 391 Audi TT Roadster.pdf
----- For the washer, it goes on the spline shaft and not the mounting screw, felt towards the motor

Correct (see picture below). In this illustration, you'll notice the blue line is not alighted with the actuator spline and the motor gear spline. This is because the motor can push to the left (direction of arrow) as there is a rubber stopper on the end of the motor housing. This is why you had trouble getting the spline shaft out in the first place. The rubber stopper can put quite a bit of pressure against the spline shaft. If the spline won't go back in easily, you can loosen the screw, push the motor to the right and that should help with the lateral (left-right) alignment. If not, then they may be in axial misalignment. Go back to the previous post to resolve that.

----- Before I secure the motor, I keep the hydraulic screw open and key to first position
----- I lower and then raise the top manually (after manually unlocking the latches, right?)

Correct again to both.

1.) Key in ignition, turn to accessory - If not already done, latch it manually
2.) Unlatch it, open the top manually.
3.) Close it again and latch it.
4.) Close the hydraulic valve.
5.) Remove the key from the ignition.
6.) Now install the motor and spline shaft.
7.) Start the car and try to cycle the top normally.

I'm going to guess that the system has a fault and the top won't function normally. But at least you have your top closed and secured and can drive the vehicle.

 

Very clear! As far as I understand, the 'dumb' motor will spin even though it is not connected by spline and the convertible top button is not being pressed. It will just sense that the roof is in position and will start spinning, as long as the ignition is on to the first position.

Hopefully, I got that right. I want to make sure things are happening as they should, when I go through your steps.

Thanks gain.

Will update you tomorrow.

 

You're sort of right - - - -

With the ignition on, and the top latched, if you press the convertible top button, it will power the motor. So yes, the motor will spin with the top latched and spline shaft removed. But as long as you don't touch the convertible top button, nothing will happen. Keep in mind, there's a very good chance if top has a fault, nothing will happen anyway even when you press the top button.

SO - - - -

Before you attempt to put the spline shaft back in, do the manual open/closed and latched with the ignition in the first position routine. Then close the valve, start the car and see if the top will try function normally. If it does and the motor spins, you're good to go!

THEN - - - -

Install the spline shaft, start the car and run the top through a complete open/close cycle. Otherwise don't bother putting the spline shaft back in as you'll need to leave it out until you get the car serviced. Just remember to always close the hydraulic valve.

SPLINE SHAFT WON'T GO IN - - - -

If you're successful and the top tries to operate normally, but you're having trouble getting the spline shaft back in and suspect axial misalignment, open the hydraulic valve again (so there's no pressure in the system) and unlatch the top.

Manually open the top just enough that both latches are out of the windshield frame and wedge a folded towel between the top and windshield frame to hold it open. This way the latch microswitches are not engaged and the motor can spin freely.

You can now use the top button to cause the motor to spin. It will only rotate when you apply power and will stop as soon as you release the button.

You don't need to have it spinning and spinning, just 'tap' the switch so it will rotate a little. Insert the spline shaft, 'tap' the button so the motor rotates, and then try to push it in. If it won't go in, 'tap' the button to turn it again. Repeat until you can get the spline shaft back in. The goal here is to try and get the motor spline aligned with the latch spline. Don't push the spline shaft in while it's turning, you only want to push when it's stopped.

NOTE - As long as the hydraulic release valve is open, you can open/close and latch the top manually indefinitely. Obviously this isn't the best way to do it, but if you're miles from home on holiday and this happens again, you can still operate the top. Just be sure to latch the top closed and close the release valve once it's either open or closed.

 

Now I got it. I GOT IT!

Thank you for taking the time to clarify. I am now crystal clear on the way this works. Can't wait to try it out.

 

No worries. Just remember, the point of this whole exercise was to get the spline shaft out so you can get the crank arm tool (CAT) inserted, latch and secure the top. If you get lucky and the ignition-on (accessory) manual open/close routine works, then you should be okay.

However, I'm not sure that will be the case as you most likely have a fault due to the servo flap motors.

If the top still won't function, your next steps are -

1.) Be sure the hydraulic release valve is closed
2.) Latch the top with the CAT
3.) Re-install the motor and motor bracket and put the headliner (motor) cover back on
4.) Put the Spline Shaft and Washer in a safe place (e.g. zip lock bag in the glove box)
5.) Take it in for service so they can sort it out.

Again, if you want to invest in a VCDS, you should be able to do everything yourself. Just sayin'

Good luck!

 

One additional bit of help in case you run into problems with the Spline Shaft or the Crank Arm Tool (CAT) -

https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 0#p8974410

 

HERE'S THE UPDATE:

I did the manual cycle of the roof:
key to first position, hydraulic valve open, opened latches with CAT tool, put top down and up, latched with CAT tool, key off

Then I started the car, unlatched with CAT tool, and pressed button....Immediately got error saying SOFT TOP CANNOT BE USED. Yellow warning light was flashing. No activity. Dumb motor was not spinning.

I locked everything manually and went driving. Got several errors at this point: Yellow blinking light (soft top). Then another error message appeared once I gained some speed: SOFT TOP NOT SECURE. I checked, the latches were secure.

Parked the car.

Next day my gf did some driving and got no error lights at all. Wow. I immediately went to the car....started engine, unlatched with CAT tool, and before I even pressed the button for the top, the error light came back on. I pressed the button, another error: SOFT TOP CANNOT BE USED.

Went driving. Yellow light blinking and another error about the latches: SOFT TOP NOT SECURE.

15 Minutes later all warnings went away. I parked, opened with CAT tool and pressed the button:
the windows went down, the dumb motor began spinning, and just when it was time for the soft top to go down, the error came on saying: SOFT TOP CANNOT BE USED. The hydraulic valve is closed, in case you're wondering

I'm guessing this is now a software issue??

 

Yep, I was afraid of that. :? Definitely sounds like you have a fault logged. Only way to resolve it is with a VCDS or possibly and OBD-11 Dongle SmartDevice connection. You can either buy one and do it yourself, or just take it into the shop and let them sort it.

I'm 99.9% sure you have a bad flap servo motor. It's an easy DIY fix and it can't hurt to do it. Given you have a 11-year old Roadster, it's where I would start given you know everything else related to the convertible top actually works. And do both while you're at it. You can knock them both out in about 2-hours. Like most things, once you've done the first, the second will go twice as fast. Here's a link to the DIY -

https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1786641

After you've done the R&R, take it in to the shop and ask them to clear the faults and run an Adaptation. Odds are good that when they run their initial scan, they're going to find some errors that look something like this:

- 00830 Convertible Top Control Module (J256)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

- 03247 Sensor for Canopy Flap; Right (G597)
008 - Implausible Signal

- 02000 Switch Position
008 - Implausible Signal

If you have already done the servo R&R, then they only need to clear the fault(s) and run the Adaptation. Otherwise, they will probably charge you for a new servo you don't actually need. Bottom line, you have nothing to loose by doing the servo R&R yourself.

NOTE - the computer stores the faults even if you've done the R&R. That's just how it works. The Adaptation is so the computer 'learns' the new values that it will see when it interrogates the cleaned up servos.

More on soft top fault codes -
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1830834

This is the flap servo (one on each side) and what a "defective" flap servo motor looks like inside. Nothing's actually broken, the grease just gets on the circuit board and screws up the voltage signal. This causes the fault. The case comes apart easily, and the inside is very simple to clean and re-install. Once you get the grease off the circuit board, it will work again. A number of people have done this and it's worked for them so you're in good company.

That 0.1% uncertainty would be a failed mechanism switch or hall sensor, but so far, I have not see anyone report one that's failed.

One last comment - when you take it in, tell them up right up front you want a print-out of the recorded faults they detected before they start work and another scan and print-out after they're finished to verify the faults have been cleared. I've heard of too many shops that say "We found several faults" but won't say what it was. You have a right as a customer to know what's wrong with your car and the evidence of it AND proof they corrected the problem.

 

Ok, cool. Few questions:

1) I have the flap ball joints disconnected. Could the flap servos still be causing the issue, even if they are no longer in play?

2) Before I bought the car 6-months ago, the previous owner had an issue with the top, which he fixed (see image). Could this be related?

3) Can it be the motor/pump that is in the trunk? Or is that thing pretty solid?

Thanks again mate!

 

No, the ball joints on the flaps are of no consequence. When the servos are working, the ball joints are just a mechanical link to move the flap up and down. The problem is most likely the flap servos which, if gunked up as shown previously, will cause an erroneous or "implausable" signal.

What happens is the servo potentiometers are probably gunked up and give a bad or 'implausable" voltage signal to the computer. To prevent a possible collision between the flap and top, it defaults by shutting down the top. Since you disconnected the ball joint, the flaps just pop up by default since they're spring loaded. So technically, you could operate the roof manually indefinitely as long as the flaps are out of the way.

There are two faults or errors that do come up based on your post since the term "implausable" was used -

02000 - Switch Position: Implausible Signal. Reported from the control module that a switch signal was not as expected. Depending on the roof problem, this could be E137 or any of the contact switches in the convertible top system.

03245 - Canopy Position Implausible Related to V118 Convertible Top Operation Hydraulic Pump.

Now while the hydraulic pump could be the culprit, it's the most expensive to repair and also the least reported problem. From my experience in this Forum, and from researching German, French and American sites, the servo flaps come up as the main culprit 9 times out of 10.

Having said there, there are two TDBs on both the hydraulic pump and servo motor you can read here -
View attachment CONVERTIBLE TOP - Convertible Top Inoperative.pdf
View attachment CONVERTIBLE TOP - Hydraulic Pump Drive Motor.pdf
If you're still unsure about what to do next, then simply don't mess with anything and just take it in for an estimate.

Tell them you want a scan of the faults, and a copy of it so you can see the fault codes, along with a quote for what they believe is the problem. Be sure to get that printout!! It's key to knowing what faults have been logged. Then if you'd like, we can review it and see where you want to go from here.

BTW - you might also print out both TSBs, take them into Audi and see if they will make good on them. Doesn't hurt to ask. You could even go back to the previous Audi dealership and ask why, when there were two TSBs published, they didn't do the repair work in the first place.

Good luck!

 

THANK YOU!!!! I'll use the TSBs you gave me as an 'excuse' to get a diagnostic and see what error codes come up...keep you posted....

 

Hey SwissJetPilot -

I tool your advice and removed the servos for repair. Thanks for the tip on placing the towel in the work area...I definitely would have lost at least one screw had I not done that

Once I opened the servo cases, sure enough there was loads of grease in the contacts. I cleaned all that up, according to your manual. Thank you.

Here's something that I wanted to verify before I reassemble --- I noticed that the 2 servos were assembled differently. On one of them, the arm attaches from the FACE side and on the other it attached on the BACK side. Is this normal? I mean, that is how they were when I pulled them from the car, and the convertible top used to work just fine. But please verify for me. See pictures that I've attached.

Thanks in advance.

 

Yes, correct. It's the same servo, just reversed. I've updated the post to include a comment to mark them "L" and "R" prior to removal to ensure they don't get mixed up. When I did mine, I did one at a time so it wasn't an issue. But for anyone pulling both at the same time, probably a good idea to mark them.

 

I took a few pictures when they were still on the car. I just wasn't sure the arms were supposed to be attached differently. But I think you're saying that this is the correct assembly. So that's good news.

 

While you have it all opened up, now's a good time to check that your drip trays don't have any bits of debris that might block the drain. Just checked mine and found a couple of surprises.

Easiest way to check your drains is to open the top about half way, as this gets the mechanism out of view of the drain. Then start a video on your phone and put your phone lens down inside the drip tray with the lens is facing inboard towards the drain. Put it on the side closest to you viewing the drain. Leave it there for a few seconds so it's not jiggling around and then review your video and see if the drain is clear.

https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 9&start=30

 

I put the flaps back in and connected everything together. Tried to cycle the top.

- The latch motor spins both ways, depending on which way I push/pull the button.
- I hear the servo motor spin (I think)
- The top doesn't go down and error light shows up in the instrument panel, when it gets to that point.
- When I latch the top with the Crank Arm Tool, the error light goes away

What do you think? Time for VCDS? If so, I was thinking to go this route:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Day-Rental-R ... SwRfRcwsNE

I'll take it to the dealer with the service bulletins first to see if I can get a printout of error codes for free, so we can confirm.