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Mk1 225 TTQ Exhaust Sizing

4.5K views 9 replies 7 participants last post by  dimadee  
#1 ·

I am looking to replace the exhaust on my 1999 225 TTQ with something that has a nice deep note, is quiet and of course no drone. I know that many of the after market manufacturers offer 3" systems, with a small number sticking with 2.5". I must admit 3" sounds a little on the large side for a 1.8 litre engine fitted with one of the smallest hair dryers on the planet.

Bigger isn't always better, and manufacturers of the 3" after market systems acknowledge low down torque loss by printing things like (a direct quote).... "Midrange and top end power increases dramatically while almost no low end power loss is felt". I spend plenty of time in traffic where low down torque is nice. I don't spend much time bouncing off the rev limiter, so driveability at the expense of a couple of horses is fine.

Unable to decide between the two sizes, I decided to go back to my old friend mathematics to see what the numbers show before I go ahead and order the components. The results may surprise some of you, and I am sure that some will not agree. I am not trying to start an argument or detract from anyone's product, just looking for the optimal result, and thought that someone else might be interested.
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Many years ago in the 70's, a dude called David Vizard did a whole lot of work around engine efficiency and horsepower using a flow bench and a dyno. He came up with many good ideas including anti-reversion cones, and the turbo muffler (yes, he invented it!) He also came up with some very useful rules of thumb for inlet and exhaust design. Google him and you will find some excellent reading on max hp and efficiency. Although his later work was with V8's, his early work was with british 4 cylinder engines.

One of his rules, 2.2cfm/hp, calculates the exhaust volume in CFM an exhaust is required to flow for a given hp output, where the hp is measured (or estimated) with zero back pressure.

For my TT Quattro, I estimate 240hp with zero back pressure on a good day, so the required CFM for my exhaust is 528CFM

Another rule of thumb he discovered was the volume a length of pipe can flow, based on it's cross sectional area. At 10.5in of mercury, a length of pipe will flow 115 CFM per sq in. Relating this back to my TT, the factory downpipe has two 47mm OD pipes entering the cats.

Downpipe size = 2 x 47mm OD, so the flow rate = 534CFM. We know the downpipe has a number of bends in it, so it will flow less than straight lengths of pipe. You can see however that the two 47mm OD pipes are pretty well matched to the 528CFM required to flow 240hp (I know, I am ignoring turbulence generated where it splits into 2 at the top of the downpipe)

Now to look at the required pipe diameter for the rest of the system:

2.50" tube flows 507CFM
2.75" tube flows 620CFM (pity you can't get this size!)
3.00" tube flows 744CFM

There are numerous factors that do have an effect....gas temperature is a big one. For every litre of ambient temp air that is drawn into an engine, over 4 litres of gas is expelled through the exhaust port. As this gas cools through the exhaust system, it reduces in volume, which reduces the effective back pressure.

All this number crunching has me thinking I could keep my existing downpipe, merge it into a Magnaflow single metallic catalytic converter (#59926 - 600CFM), exit the cat with an almost straight length of 2.5" pipe (I don't need a bend behind the cat as I don't have a post cat sensor) down to a 2.5" Magnaflow straight through resonator (#10426), and on to a Magnaflow Camaro type 2.5" in & 2 x 2.5" out muffler (#12265). I have a couple of Borla 4.5" tips that will finish off back end nicely. As you can probably guess, I like Magnaflow products.

Pipework will be aluminiumized steel or 409 stainless with mandrel bends.

I would appreciate any constructive comments before I go ahead and order the components.

By the way, I have a Modshack VTDA and a Powergasket fitted, and don't intend to do much more.


Note: all pipe calculations assume:
- 16 gauge pipe ( ID = OD - 3.3mm)
- 100% volumetric efficiency
 
#3 ·
Yes, almost. Nearly everyone on here likes to pay for overpriced of the shelf systems. There is a handfull who go for custom made, but i dont think ive read any threads on people making there own. I dont think theres any exhaust experts on here.

Im no expert so you lost me on some of the maths. Lol, but from what i understand, its only n/a that need backpressure to aid the gasses out the head, on forced induction the gasses are forced out so in theory, the bigger the pipe the beter. Midrange shouldnt change too much..
Too large a pipe however can take longer to shift the hot gasses from the front to the back thus creating heat in the head in turn loosing power.
Likewise if theres any diffrences in size within the id of the pipe it can create a stall in the gasses which slow them down.

If im reading your maths correctly the 2.5 isnt big enough and will create backpressure loosing top end power. The 2.75 looks right and must be available somewhere. Personally id just go for the 3inch and be done with it.
 
#5 ·
OK thanks fellas. Maybe I should document my build to encourage others to have a go. I will start another thread when I order the bits and they arrive, and take it from there.

I am waiting for a response from Magnaflow on cat flow rates, and then I will go ahead and order. :D
 
#8 ·
Here's a clip of mine running a 2.5" T304 Stainless Steel (which has better corrosion resistance and heat resistance but at higher cost than the 409 stainless steel) Scorpion non res, custom de cat, custom re map (Evolve), forge splitter R Valve and cold air feed induction kit and like dimadee I'm running the APX engine so no second O2 sensor:

 
#9 ·
Interesting post.

Was recently at a custom exhaust fabrication shop, as my exhaust was blowing due to a clamp failure. They repaired this for nothing which was very kind of them. :) After taking her home i did notice that the mid range seemed to pull a lot better. I have a Miltek Cat Back system which if i remember is 2.75". Was thinking in getting a 3" downpipe but after reading this i might change my mind.

Have you looked at the miltek systems.?

Bobski
 
#10 ·
The Milltek system has a reputation of being a great system. I did look at it, but was quoted A$1200 for a cat back system.

Since my last post, I have discovered that 42 Draft Designs has an Australian distributor. With the Aussie dollar strength against the US$, the prices are very good. Website is http://www.carformance.com.au

A complete Mk1 225Q Turbo Back system will cost A$1405 delivered to your door, including duty. That is a very sharp price. Jet Hot Ceramic coating the downpipe adds $100. There have been criticisms about the 42DD system being made out of aluminized mild steel, however I noticed that they are using 14 gauge instead of the normal 16 gauge. The difference is 1.6mm wall for 16 gauge vs 2mm wall for the 14 gauge, which is a significant increase.

My 'Minister for Finance' in a surprise move has approved the purchase of a complete system, including Jet Hot coating the downpipe.....woohoo I will be painting the catback pipework and flanges with VHT Flame Proof so it looks pretty.

Stay tuned for a review when it arrives.